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Edition: U.S. Article Comments (0) Technology Apple pays user compensation over iPhone tracking Amazon plans new Android tablet for this fall Netflix price hike draws user ire, investor glee Twitter gears up auto-ads for big clients: sources No link seen between cellphones, brain tumor Royalty payments dog Pandora co-founder Apple's chief patent lawyer leaving: sources Alibaba.com in deal with Western Union for AliExpress SAP attacks $1.3 billion Oracle verdict at hearing Sony: Our tablets are coming . . . eventually Follow Reuters Facebook Twitter RSS YouTube Read Obama walks out of tense US debt meeting - aide 13 Jul 2011 Los Angeles braces for weekend of "Carmageddon" 9:59am EDT U.S. to face Japan in women's World Cup final 8:52am EDT Mila Kunis Breaks Date With Marine? 13 Jul 2011 Dollar in full retreat, NZD storms 30-year peak | 13 Jul 2011 Discussed 119 Obama, lawmakers meet for 75 minutes on debt impasse 98 WRAPUP 1-Taxes still a stumbling block in U.S. debt talks 98 Obama and lawmakers regroup to seek debt deal Watched Circus magic transforms sand Wed, Jul 13 2011 Hefner's revenge; Ryan Reynolds stops traffic Fri, Jun 17 2011 A Tokyo-Paris flight in under three hours on the horizon Fri, Jun 24 2011 U.S. and China face vast divide on cyber issues Tweet Share this Email Print Related News Obama and lawmakers face fresh doubts on debt deal 11:34am EDT Moody's adds pressure to stalled debt talks Wed, Jul 13 2011 Murdoch, savaged in parliament, pulls British TV bid Wed, Jul 13 2011 U.N. Council condemns embassy attacks in Syria Tue, Jul 12 2011 Obama, lawmakers fall short on debt deal Mon, Jul 11 2011 Analysis & Opinion Tech wrap: New effort underway in Internet piracy fight America’s problematic remote control wars Related Topics Technology » Media » 2Lt William Liggett works at the Air Force Space Command Network Operations & Security Center at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colorado July 20, 2010. Credit: Reuters/Rick Wilking By Diane Bartz and Paul Eckert WASHINGTON | Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:31am EDT WASHINGTON (Reuters) - For two years, academic experts from the United States and China have quietly held talks on cyber-security, straining to establish rules of the road in a realm that has proven a persistent irritant between the world's two largest economies. The informal discussions have yielded modest progress in areas such as cooperation to combat Internet fraud, where both Beijing and Washington have an incentive to work together, according to participants. But mostly, the talks appear to have exposed a wide gap between the United States and China over almost everything virtual: policing computer networks, moderating cyber warfare, even controlling information. China's contrasting view of cyber security was made clear as soon as the United States began discussing the need to protect computer networks, James Mulvenon, a China expert at the Defense Group Inc, told a recent Washington conference. China wanted to talk about censorship. "The Chinese came back immediately and said no, no, no, we want to talk about information security, which is both protecting the network and policing the content on the network," Mulvenon said. "Right from the outset, we were talking past one another," he added. Digital attacks and cyber snooping on U.S. technology firms and government agencies including the Pentagon, many of them believed to have originated in or been routed through China, have pushed cyber-security up the list of thorny issues troubling Sino-American relations. While Beijing denies it, U.S. officials and experts suspect China's hand was behind the hacking and phishing of web-search giant Google Inc. this year and last, as well as intrusions into Pentagon networks. On Thursday, the Pentagon is due to release its formal cyber-security strategy. Unlike nuclear, chemical and biological weaponry, or trade wars, there are no existing international treaties that cover cyber-war, computer espionage or hacking. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, an architect of the U.S. opening with China in the 1970s, told a Thomson Reuters event last month that a high-level agreement between the two sides is needed. "If you take it case by case it will lead to accusations and counter-accusations," he said. UNOFFICIAL TALKS FIRST But so far, there has been relatively little official movement. The annual cabinet-level U.S.-China Strategic and Economic Dialogue included cyber security for the first time this year, but the session was just 90 minutes long, cut in half by translation and produced no breakthroughs. The unofficial talks between experts began after China approached the United States with concerns that hacker intrusions were stoking bilateral tension, said James Lewis, a cybersecurity expert who leads the U.S. side of the talks. The U.S. group and experts from the state-affiliated China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations have covered four areas: law enforcement, trade, military issues and espionage. Five group meetings and three smaller informal meetings have made headway in the law enforcement area, said Lewis, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank. In one instance, the FBI helped China's law enforcement agencies by staging raids in New York on Chinese in the United States who were defrauding people back home, he said. "It's slow, but I think there's a little bit of progress," said Lewis, adding that the goal is to eventually hand the conversations over to official negotiating teams. SAME WEB, DIFFERENT DREAMS But the military and espionage tracks have been hard going, highlighting what analysts say is a huge U.S.-China perception gap over values, capabilities, interests -- and even basic definitions of deterrence and cyber security. Analysts say China's People's Liberation Army believes its ability to attack U.S. cyber infrastructure compensates for its conventional military weakness compared to the United States. "I'm quite skeptical of the likelihood that any effective understanding of offensive operations can be reached with the Chinese government," said Stewart Baker, a former U.S. Department of Homeland Security official, now at the law firm Steptoe & Johnson. China's eagerness to acquire foreign technology also has inspired cyber intrusions that anger trade partners. Hackers based in China have been accused of trying to steal everything from Google's valuable search algorithm to manuals for U.S. satellites to gigabytes of proprietary business information from Western energy companies. But China's spymasters, paradoxically for a centrally controlled government, do not keep a tight leash on hackers and others that they train, said Lewis, whose group will hold its next round of unofficial cyber-security talks later this year. Lewis said he was skeptical that Beijing was directing the high-value intellectual property theft or could stop it. "They do train people and they do use proxies but that doesn't mean that everyone is under their control," he said. Even if the United States could verify that China was behind malicious cyber activity and Beijing had the capacity to rein it in, negotiations toward a cyber treaty might require concessions Washington would be loathe to put on the table. Jack Goldsmith, an international law and cyber-security expert at Harvard Law School, says China and other countries would likely demand U.S. restraint in areas such as intelligence gathering and encouraging political activists who challenge curbs on Internet freedom. "Until the United States gets serious about which concessions that are attractive to our adversaries it is willing and able to make, American talk of a cyber-arms agreement is empty," Goldsmith wrote recently. (Editing by Warren Strobel and Cynthia Osterman) Technology Media Tweet this Link this Share this Digg this Email Reprints We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/ Comments (0) Be the first to comment on reuters.com. Add yours using the box above. 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